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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Sep 23, 2010 2:36pm
Forum: 1930_census Subject: Re: TR

TR , I am glad you made it . I deleted all the info to find your way here , but we will have a small window of time .
To get some cultural bearings might be a place to begin .
I am a native born American near NYC . I was brought up as a Catholic . I left the Catholic Church 20 years ago and simply consider myself as a Christian . I do not need anyone , a priest , to intermediate between me and God . My faith is an important part of who I am .

I guess my first question is , why is Whahhabism ( له ) the dominant of voice Islam ? Is it because of Saudi money ?
It seems to me much like Christians who believe their reading is the only reading of the Bible . I am a simple man and there are clear outlines of what God commands in the Bible . Look at micah6vs8 in the Bible . However , there are those for power , money or insanity that will take a small verse , or one out of context , and build a theology from it .
It's like an Imam taking the first Sura , سورة الفاتحة‎, , and telling you dragons gave birth to the earth . And if you do not believe that , you are not a Muslim or maybe , even human .
This discussion could be good stuff TR . I hope it is .
edit - At least check in daily . I don't know how much time we have .

This post was modified by micah6vs8 on 2010-09-23 21:36:21

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Poster: TR1973 Date: Sep 30, 2010 1:30pm
Forum: 1930_census Subject: Re: TR

Hi M ,
sorry for being late - was busy with so many thing last week -
Well I'm Palestinian origin , grown up in the middle east with its all contradictions! , traveled a lot , I had chance to visit the US but still hoping one day to visit NYC and eat a hot dog . (I"m sure it will taste different) .

for Whahabism , if you went back with the history of Saudi family and how they got to be the rules for that country you will understand why whahhabism looks like there are dominant.
I don't agree with Whahhbism , since they are closed on themselves and they don't listen to the logic at all .

They use Islam as cover for their own explanation , some of the what they say is true , some is not true .
later on they politics used Whahhbism to rule the country and using Islam as cover but in reality , they don't care about Islam at all and what they care is their positions only.
In Islam we shouldn't have so many groups , it is only one religion , our messenger is( Muhammed) , one god ,one holy book. This is Islam .
We should separate between politics and how they are using religion to start fearing each other .
I have grown up in christian neighbor hood . we never had any conflicts with them , actually we were very close until now .
I feel sorry and sad when people start mixing between politics and religions.
This is not my personal thoughts , its general trend for the majority but you don't see this opinion in the media.

To summarize the above :Whahhbism represent themselves only and for the benefits of the ruler family to encourage them since anyone who will refuse and discuss what they are saying that makes him " bad " !
after many years from this behavior from Whahhbism we star to see more extremes and less extreme .
but at the end Only politics harvesting the gains for that.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Oct 3, 2010 11:42am
Forum: 1930_census Subject: Re: TR

TR , Thank-you for responding to my question . We all have obligations so no need to worry . I am looking forward to our interfaith dialogue . There is so much hatred and killing that anything , even two people on this forum , communicating with each other in good faith can hopefully be a small part of bringing peace to all the People of the Book .
God has a sense of humor . I decided on 10-2-10 to take a break from Internet Archive . I was checking my posts to see if I had forgotten to respond to anyone and I found your post . And here I am . I want to continue and I will not take a break from our discussion . I too do not believe Christianity ought to be splinted into so many parts , but it is . Many of my generation ( I am 42 ) that I go to church with also agree with that position .
Thank-you for your clear answer . I have several questions , but I will only ask one now . Why have your Christian neighbors grown apart from you ? I know that many are leaving Palestine out of fear . What is your opinion ?
Well TR it is your turn to ask me a question and I will await your post . M

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Poster: TR1973 Date: Oct 7, 2010 11:04am
Forum: 1930_census Subject: Re: TR

Hi M,
Thanks for your reply and I'm enjoying this discussion very much as well, ( I'm 38 but getting younger :)).
and I will be checking this very often ,
to answer your question : We just grow up and everyone got busy with their lives . I still in contact with some of them through emails. We speak the same language, we have the same culture and backgrounds. I don't thin that religion can separate us : they are happy with their religion and I'm happy with mine.
one important thing we practice our regions for GOD only and not for people.

I have question for you : Why Western world is very easy to influence them with media lies.
Is it because they are so honest and expect this from their governments ?( of course there are some exceptions )

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Oct 7, 2010 3:25pm
Forum: 1930_census Subject: Re: TR

First , can I have that recipe for growing younger ?
That is a complex question in regards to the media's impact on Americans . I may be slightly different because I look at media from all over the world ( as do others ), depending on what I am interested in . That self editing of choosing one's own media options is growing and why papers such as The New York Times is on verge of bankruptcy .
When I was growing up in the '70's and '80's these were the main media outlets ; The New York Times , The Washington Post , the Associated Press (AP), ABC , NBC and CBS . Most news that the vast majority of Americans received came from these outlets . That is no longer the case .
Other emerging media outlets began forming in the 90's and have only grown larger taking viewers/ readers from the dominant aforementioned media . Radio ( Rush Limbaugh ), the internet ( Drudge Report ) , and cable news ( CNN , Fox News ) have deeply sliced into what Americans call the 'old media' . Newspapers are going out of business at a rapid pace . The TV networks have been bleeding viewers for many years , and basically just older people watch ABC , CBS and NBC news . The media landscape that was once uniform has become fractured . There is not one monolithic media .
It's hard to answer your question fully without touching on politics . Before the 90's when media was more concentrated , it was in New York City and Washington D.C. that almost all news came from . Many of the same people who went into positions of authority in politics or media went to the same schools and universities ( Yale , Harvard ). There was not much diversity of thought . Many would argue that this predominant thought was from the left or liberal . That is no longer the case . A 'conservative' media has grown challenging the 'old media'.
With the fracturing of our media has also come the fracturing of our politics . America is a troubled country at the moment . The cultural revolution of the '60's has splintered the country into two ways of thought that are divergent and can not be reconciled . There is concern and anger over the current state of our country . Both major parties have little confidence from the American people . The Republicans may do well in the upcoming elections , but that does not indicate a love of that political party , but frustration with the President and the current Congress .
As Americans have little confidence in our current political system they have even less confidence in the media in general . Most think the media manipulates the news to there own ends . And they do . The basic fact is the only function for a media outlet is to gain and retain consumers so that they can charge higher advertising rates . Good journalism comes second . Just as the only function for a politician is to get re-elected . Being committed to doing the right things for our country is secondary .
So lies are constantly flowing from those two sources . It's what they do .
Most Americans are good people , as is the case throughout the world . The reflection you may see is twisted from various sources for there own gain . Most Americans know this .
There is a decency and goodness to most of the Americans people . I wonder how often that is seen overseas . I will not deny that we are an empire and most Americans like it that way . How we retain our empire is the question of the moment . Mostly it is phrased as , "Will my children have a better life then me ?" That's one of the promises of my country that draws so many to our shores for generations .
O.K. I could go on , but I will stop . Did I answer your question ? Do you have a specific lie you where referring to ? I did not do European media which has more state control outside of Great Britain .
TR , be well and I look forward to your reply . M

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Poster: TR1973 Date: Oct 8, 2010 3:29pm
Forum: 1930_census Subject: Re: TR

My recipe to grow younger is satisfaction with my life :) , I'm happy with what I have and satisfied , that doesn't mean I have to sit down and that's it . every day I'm doing something new as our human nature wants but I do it for myself and not to achieve better position. if it comes fine , if not then also fine.

and yes you did answer me , I can say how the media was built in the US , I had trouble to understand why it is structured like that.

In many countries for example the country I grow up in , everybody follow up the news : young ,old , men and women . I remember my grandmother ( she can't read or write) , used to ask me while I was young boy to see the news and tell her what is going on in the world .
Maybe because in the Middle east area the decision how to rule the country were and i think - still- coming from outside to the puppets we have.

I know most of the Americans have good hearts I have dealt with them before and this also applied to people from my area , they also have good hearts ( and here I talk about the majority , not some twisted minds that do exist in any country ).

Thank you for your explanation and you can ask me what you like of course.


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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Oct 9, 2010 9:43am
Forum: 1930_census Subject: Re: TR

A satisfied mind is more precious then gold .

One area of confusion and anger in the West is the perception that women are treated as second class citizens . Their clothing is restricted . Their ability to obtain skills and compete for any career or job is restricted . They do not have equal protection under the law . Many photos of women being stoned to death , being executed in other manners or oppressed are seen across the spectrum of media and politics in the West . The sight of a woman in a Burka does not agree with the Western mind .

What does the Qur'an say about the treatment and place of women in Islam ?
If you are going to use many Sura's feel free to list them as
Luke 6:42 , for example
if the Sura's are broken down in a similar way as Christian verses ( I believe that they are ). I have read some parts of the Qur'an ( in English ) so I am not completely unaware of the text . Of course , answer the question the way you feel most comfortable with , and if you use many full Sura's , go ahead .

How much of the treatment of women is tied to the culture of the country where Islam is practiced ? Is the treatment of women in Afghanistan different then a women in Bosnia ? Then a women in Indonesia ?

How much does economic class have to do with the way a woman is treated ? Is a women from a wealthy family from Qutar treated differently then a Bedouin women in the Sahara ?

If there is a difference in either example , geographic or cultural , why ?
Thanks TR , M

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Poster: TR1973 Date: Oct 14, 2010 1:20pm
Forum: 1930_census Subject: Re: TR

M ,
I like your question very much ,I"ll answer you very soon but I need sometime to document my reply. nowadays I have projects to deliver and some final exams ( I"m pursuing my master degree in BA as well )
until I answer your question , I would like to show those pictures



3- Jewish

just quick note for Burkaa : it's tradition and no related to Islam , the first picture is what Islam tells women to wear.
if you can notice the similarity between the 3 religions .

Back to Burkaa again : I would consider it as private issue , like people who like to get nude and call them selves natural , I agree each country can set up their own laws and regulations and won't challenge that but for example : woman decided to cover her face in the street why anyone object !
and I'm talking about France to be exact : women not allowed to cover their faces but allowed to wear bikini !
that doesn't make any sense/

look at this picture was taken for two ladies in France after

the two ladies wear that to protest for the law who fine anywoman wear Burkaa .

surprisingly officials of France and law enforcement didn't fine those two ladies ,I wonder why !

This post was modified by TR1973 on 2010-10-14 20:20:17

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Oct 17, 2010 10:53am
Forum: 1930_census Subject: Re: TR

TR , I know that was a big question , only made larger by the addition of geography , culture and wealth . Take your time . I anticipated going deep into the Qu'ran with your reply .
If you want to , feel free to ask me a question in the meantime , and we will both work on a reply .

my response to the above post is below . Beginning with the words , " T. R . Hello . "

This post was modified by micah6vs8 on 2010-10-17 17:53:01

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Poster: TR1973 Date: Oct 14, 2010 1:38pm
Forum: 1930_census Subject: Re: TR

oh great ,you are here .

I just had some time to edit my previous post ,
but I will keep answering your question

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Poster: TR1973 Date: Oct 14, 2010 1:46pm
Forum: 1930_census Subject: Re: TR

edit :
I hope we don't mix between politics and religion in your question .
I'll explain why later since I have examples from Tunisia and Egypt

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Oct 14, 2010 1:53pm
Forum: 1930_census Subject: Re: TR

That is fine . I look at this is a place to ask and answer questions without the intense emotion ready to spring at a moments notice . Once I have an understanding of your answer I move on to the next question , and hopefully the same for you .
There are plenty of places to get no attempt at understanding , and with that hatred , on these topics we discuss . But this is a place of learning .

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Poster: TR1973 Date: Oct 14, 2010 2:08pm
Forum: 1930_census Subject: Re: TR

Thanks for understanding M,
I'm sorry for not explaining my self when I mentioned about ( not to mix between religion and politics)
Why I say that because I have solid proofs that politics from the Islamic world and Western world using religion for their own agenda .

This post was modified by TR1973 on 2010-10-14 21:08:21

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Oct 14, 2010 2:11pm
Forum: 1930_census Subject: Re: TR

I differentiate between organized religion and one's own spiritual life with God . Organized religion is often twisted by men for money , power , or their own insanity . In the worldly affairs of man religion and politics often cross , almost always with bad intent and ends .

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Poster: TR1973 Date: Oct 14, 2010 2:09pm
Forum: 1930_census Subject: Re: TR

Did you see my edited post above with the web links ?

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Oct 14, 2010 2:15pm
Forum: 1930_census Subject: Re: TR

Yes , but I going to read it later when my children are in bed . Thanks for the heads up .

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Jan 2, 2011 8:48am
Forum: 1930_census Subject: Re: TR

TR, is anybody out there ?

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Oct 21, 2010 9:18am
Forum: 1930_census Subject: Re: TR

TR , Hello . I hope you and your family are well . Onto a reply.

Muslim woman - Is it part of the Qu'ran that she covers herself in such a manner ? All women after first menses ? If a woman professes faith in Allah is this clearly stated how she is expected to dress ? What if she chooses not to ?

Christian - The women shown was a Roman Catholic nun , far from usual dress for almost all Christian women .
( I am going to a final vows mass for a family friend who is becoming a nun . She does not wear any habit ever . )
There are other exceptions . Pre- Vatican 2 Catholicism worshipers ( they do not accept the changes made in the Catholic Church because of Vatican 2 ). Women are veiled only during the service . Amish women dress plainly in a 19th century style all the time .
The Bible states that Christian women are to dress modestly and not over adorn themselves . But that is for the individual woman to decide between her and God what that line of modesty is .

Jewish - I am not fully familiar with this one . I know that Reform and Conservative women do not cover themselves .
Orthodox and Hasidic women do . That's all I know .

I would expect similarities between all three styles of clothing as we are all People of Book , reading the some of the same words .

I do not have a problem if a woman wants to wear a Burka . If it is her choice . Otherwise it is a symbol of oppression to me .

Is this video clip ( below )representative of Islamic thought ?

As far as the French , you are on your own there TR . It's the French . I don't understand them half the time either .

I will say that no one ought to be allowed to cover their face totally in public . It is a law enforcement matter ( anyone could be under there ).

I look forward to your reply . Again , feel free to ask me a question while I await your full response to my rather large question to you .

This post was modified by micah6vs8 on 2010-10-21 16:18:53